Chi Sucker and +X fighting

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KingLeonard
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Chi Sucker and +X fighting

Postby KingLeonard » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:32 pm

So according to the rule book - "48.1 Canceling or Blanking X. If the definition of Xis blanked(32.0)or canceled(33.0), the X value immediately becomes 0. Thus, a Character with a Fighting of X that is canceled or blanked has a printed Fighting of 0, and it will be smoked unless it has other Fighting bonuses that exceed its damage"

Chi Sucker's rules text says - "When Chi Sucker turns to attack, it gains +X Fighting until it leaves play. X = the number of Power-generating Sites controlled by controller of its target."

So is Chi Sucker's X value constantly being reevaluated, or does the X value get added to the printed fighting each time?

For instance, Player A's Chi Sucker attacks Player B (who has 3 sites) and goes to 4 fighting. Next turn they attack again and go to 7 fighting, but take 2 points of damage from an interceptor. Between interception and combat with the site Player B plays Larcenous Mist vPAP - "Target a Character. Until the end of the turn, cancel target and all States on target. (Including States played later this turn.)".

Does Chi Sucker lose all additional fighting, i.e. is the X value something that can be cancelled, and go back to fighting 1 (smoking it) or is the additional fighting permanent and the X value is an ephemeral value that's recalculated each time the Chi Sucker turns to attack?
Liu_Jian
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Re: Chi Sucker and +X fighting

Postby Liu_Jian » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:59 am

The way I read it, you determine X when Chi Sucker turns to attack. Therefore even if it gets canceled or blanked, the Fighting he gained remains.
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CrazyCatTim
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Re: Chi Sucker and +X fighting

Postby CrazyCatTim » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:02 pm

Hmm. I would read it as if the Chi sucker gets cancelled, it's fighting would be reduced to 1, and in the scenario mentioned, the two points of damage would smoke it. Chi sucker does not change printed fighting (which... that whole thing is dumb, printed fighting should mean what's printed on the card, but I digress), so as soon as the box is blanked, it forgets that it has +X fighting. But I'm not a rules guy, and Liu could be quite correct.
Confirmed crazy cat man, St. Catharines, ON, Canada. Part of the Niagara - Toronto play group. My love of Shadowfist far exceeds my ability to be good at Shadowfist.
Liu_Jian
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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:50 am

Re: Chi Sucker and +X fighting

Postby Liu_Jian » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:25 pm

Good argument but the rules text also state "until it leaves play," which to me suggests that the bonus is meant to be permanent. In other words, nothing in the wording of the card makes the Fighting gain dependent on an active rules text. We need the rules team on this one I think!

Tim, bringing up printed fighting leads me to this: What about Bribery? Can you bribe an opponent and take control of a 6-Fighting Chi Sucker? After all the rulebook makes no real difference between Fighting and Printed Fighting:
"8.7 Fighting Score (g)
Characters have a Fighting score (g). The Fighting score is the amount of damage (29.0) the Character inflicts during combat (30.0) and how much damage it can take before it is smoked (20.0). Abilities that refer to a Character’s “printed Fighting” refer to this value."
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CrazyCatTim
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Re: Chi Sucker and +X fighting

Postby CrazyCatTim » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:22 am

Yes, you can bribe a 6-Fighting Chi Sucker, because bribery specifically refers to printed fighting. Fighting always refers to the current fighting of the card, while printed fighting refers to the fighting printed on the card (except for the dumb cards that change "printed fighting," which are dumb because that undermines the exact point of printed fighting. Grumble)

For the Chi Sucker, yeah, the rules team needs to chime in. If cancelling treats the text box as blank, then I assume that the Chi Sucker forgets that it ever got a bonus to its fighting. But I honestly don't know.
Confirmed crazy cat man, St. Catharines, ON, Canada. Part of the Niagara - Toronto play group. My love of Shadowfist far exceeds my ability to be good at Shadowfist.
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Matt_Woolley
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Re: Chi Sucker and +X fighting

Postby Matt_Woolley » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:18 am

Gut feel is that the sucker forgets but... Ianarg
Liu_Jian
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Re: Chi Sucker and +X fighting

Postby Liu_Jian » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:12 am

I'll take another crack at it since the rules team has not chimed in yet.

According to the rulebook, canceling (section 33, age 36) blanks the text and cancels unresolved effects in the stack. Since the Fighting bonus is added upon turning the card (i.e. it has resolved), then the canceling will not reduce the Fighting to its original value because the bonus gain is no longer dependent on the card's rules text (Chi Sucker gains the bonus "until it leaves play").

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